This is the interview that I did with Joe Jordan. He appeared at this years Roswell UFO event and blew the lid off of the abduction phenomena. He joins us here, in this in depth interview. He was given the questions and answers from the Dr. Jacobs interview and asked to comment on them. What I find of great interest is that you can read the answers side by side and judge for yourself, which answer best suits the phenomena.

L.A. = Lynn Marzulli
D.J. = David Jacobs
J.J. = Joe Jordan

Joe Jordan Interview

L.A.: How long have you been studying the abduction phenomena?

D.J.: Well, like most other UFO researchers who began in the 1960s, I was fixated on sighting phenomenon. I thought that abductions were interesting but the evidence seemed to point to a psychological explanation. Besides, the evidence was nowhere near the quality of that for the UFO phenomenon. There were no photos, videos, tapes, disinterested witnesses who could verify the abduction, and so forth. Therefore it wasn't until I met Budd Hopkins in 1982 (we actually had been introduced the year before) that I became interested in the subject.

J.J.: I’ve been researching the so-called abduction phenomenon since 1995, about 14 years. I started out in the UFO realm in 1992 becoming involved with the Mutual UFO Network as a sighting Field Investigator. In 1993, I became MUFON State Section Director for Brevard County, Florida, (where the Kennedy Space Center is located). After a few years being involved in sighting investigations, and feeling like we were tail chasing, I started to take a hard look at the so-called abduction experience. It seemed if we were to get to the truth in the UFO realm, we needed to get closer to the source. That source appeared to be with those who had been in contact with the UFO entities, the so-called abduction experiencers and Contactees.



L.A. When did you realize that something very strange was going?

D.J. I decided that the only way that I could gain some insight into the abduction phenomenon for myself was to learn hypnosis. In 1986, I began to do my own hypnosis of abductees. I had a rocky start and once I settled down and began to put proper controls into hypnosis and learn how to recognize confabulation, false memories, and other hypnosis artifacts, I began to feel a reasonable assurance that I was getting accounts that were being told with a fair degree of accuracy. It took about several months of doing sessions when I began to realize that something very strange indeed was going on. I went into a sort of “shock tailspin.” I said to myself, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.” repeatedly for about six months. Then I began to get over the shock and eventually it became routine for me, if that is imaginable.

J.J. My fellow researchers (also MUFON Investigators) and I spent many hours reading the research and looking at videos of the top abduction researchers in the UFO field. We wanted to be able to work with the experiencers without causing any harm to them. The one thing we saw was these people had symptoms of having a very traumatic experience in their life. The so called abduction experience was destroying lives and upsetting family relationships. They were expecting that we should be able to help them being UFO researchers. For those who had been looking for answers on their own, we were seeing what Jacque Vallee termed for the Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, a reality transformation. There seemed to be a spiritual kind of connection for some of these experiencers. Their worldviews as they had been raised were changing. Many were becoming involved with metaphysical or New Age practices as a source of answers for their experience. This was a new area for us as we were looking at this from an objective investigative point of view as MUFON had trained us. There seemed to be a conditioning process going on with the experiencers. Many of the signs were pointing to brainwashing techniques to accomplish this. Another thing to look at is the alleged communication from the entities. The message is usually an anti Judo/Christian message. Jesus is not who we think he is, they are our creators; the Bible is not the inherent word of GOD. Why would these entities go through the effort to convince us of this when all the other religions of the world don’t even agree with each other? What is so important about the Judo/Christian message that they want to make us believe it’s not true? This was an important question to be looked at.



L.A. The fact that there appears to be no collusion between the abductees, and that the phenomena, cuts across socio / economics lines, must have been startling when you discovered this aspect of it. Would you elaborate?

D.J. Well, Budd Hopkins had already begun to find out the widespread nature of the phenomenon. But one is indeed confronted with a phenomenon that cuts across all societal, economic, political, geographic, educational, religious, ethnic, racial, and intellectual lines. It is truly amazing that all these people from every strata of life will tell the same exact things even though most have still not been made public by the media.

I have worked with physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, attorneys, ministers, professors, teachers, and ninth grade dropouts, people who could never hold a job and everyone on the middle. I have worked with people from other countries and cultures, and with people who are exceptionally articulate and people who are not. They all same the same thing, they all have the same experiences and what they recall has nothing to do with their upbringing or their status in life or with anything else that is societal based.

J.J. After studying the Christian religion in relation to the other religions of the world, what we saw as a difference is that in most all religions the foundation is works based. Ritual is the way to enlightenment, whether it is through acquiring more and more knowledge through studies or repetitive acts. They all leave you with feeling like you can never do enough to succeed even though you keep trying and trying. You get the feeling of chasing an unreachable carrot. The Christian religion says you can have a personal relationship with GOD himself. That we have been redeemed and set free through Jesus Christ, GOD comes in the flesh. This personal relationship is made of a free will choice, where the abduction experience is done against our free will. This seems to be what these entities want to take away from us. They try to accomplish this through brainwashing methods, seduction of being special, paranormal abilities, and prophetic messages that don’t come true. Hence the term of Jacque Vallee’s book, “Messengers of Deception”.



L.A. What can you tell us about the so-called breeding program that you believe is going on?

D.J. Hopkins discovered the reproductive aspects of the phenomenon and the breeding program itself. I picked up on it and learned more about it. People are shown babies who look like combinations of alien and human. Hopkins called them “hybrids.” Some look quite alien, some look quite human and most look like they are in the middle. I could not understand what this activity was all about. Eventually, as I dug deeper into it, I realized that abductees were seeing beings that looked increasingly human-like with increasing frequency. I theorized a refinement of the species that enabled hybrids to look more human-like as time went on. I also discovered the disquieting concept that the abduction phenomenon was not an experiment, not a study, and not a learning situation. I had been quite intellectually invested in this idea, but the evidence just would not support it. Instead, I found that I was looking at a systematic program. As such, it had a beginning, a middle, and an end. And, it was goal directed.

J.J. I believe the so-called breeding program is just more of the deception we see in dealing with these entities. There is no proof yet that this is actually happening. I believe the experiencers believe it to be part of the experience. It doesn’t actually have to be happening to be effective in its purpose or outcome. We do know false pregnancies happen to women. I believe these entities are using this to their advantage of perpetuating their deception. All they have to do is make the woman believe it is happening to be effective to their being able to control. The maternity instinct is a very powerful tool for them to manipulate. It ends up being a control method to hook the woman in their plan of deception.



L.A. Are you fearful of this 'breeding program,' and if so why?

D.J. As a breeding program there would have been nothing to fear were it not for other aspects of the abduction phenomenon that I came across. The most salient one was that abductees were shown pictures of people in groups and asked to pick out the hybrids from the humans. When they were unable to do so, they heard a voice telling them that this was a wonderful thing. Everyone looked alike. Soon everyone would be together here. Soon everything would be great. A change was going to happen and it was going to be just wonderful. When I began to understand that this meant and integration program into human society, I must admit that I became fearful of the phenomenon. I had never experienced fear of the subject until I wrote The Threat in 1998 and then I realized that this phenomenon was very different than I had ever imagined it would be and I didn't like it. I feared it.

J.J. Because this brings out such powerful feelings in the woman, I feel this is probably their most powerful tool for deceiving the experiencer. I have worked with former experiencers who have been freed from the oppression of the experience who now believe this was all a lie. Once they realize this they no longer have that hold on them from the entities.



L.A. Could there be any other explanation for what abductees are experiencing other than alien abduction?

D.J. This is a phenomenon that is either psychological or it is happening. There is very little in the middle. Starting with the 1957 Antonio Vilas Boas case in Brazil, members of the therapeutic community have tried and failed to come up with a coherent psychological model for what would cause these fantasies. This is not a good sign for mental generation. The most parsimonious answer without doing extreme mental gymnastics is that these events are happening to people more or less as they remember them.

J.J. First there is no proof that extraterrestrials even exist. If so we would not be having this discussion. Could it be something else? I believe so from the evidence I have come across in my research. The experiencers believe it to be real; it destroys lives and family relationships. That is my concern, how can we help these people get their lives back? Is there a hope we can offer them? These entities are a threat to society. Can they be stopped?



L.A. I have seen critics of the abduction phenomena claim that what these people are experiencing is a common sleep related phenomena; I refer specifically to the work of Mary Russell. Would you disagree with her / them and why?

D.J. All abduction debunkers make one or more of three mistakes: They do not know the evidence, they distort the evidence, or they ignore the evidence. The distressing fact is that in all the years that I have been researching this subject, I have found no exceptions. At present, debunkers have presented over thirty “explanations” for abductions. Most of the explanations of mutually exclusive, but the debunkers seem to have little or no knowledge of the history of debunking and so they plow ahead with their bright ideas, which are usually a recycled versions of ideas already thought of, debated, and discarded by serious abduction researchers years before. Mary Russell, Susan Clancy, and others have latched on to the current one: Sleep Paralysis. This, of course is an old and debated one -- as most of them are. The first thing to understand is that the majority (by a small margin) of the 1100 events that I have investigated take place either during the day or at night when the person is not asleep. Some abductions occur in groups and people are able to verify each other's abduction. People are physically missing when they are abducted. We have no (the old Australian Maureen Puddy case notwithstanding) of people being found or seen when they said they were abducted. In addition there is other physical evidence that is solidly part of the abduction phenomenon (scars, wearing someone else's clothes upon return from being abducted, etc.) that must be taken into account by these sleep theories. In other words, the Sleep Paralysis theory beautifully follows the debunkers' intellectual engine: Lack of knowledge of the data, distortion of the data, ignoring the data.

J.J. Agreed, there is a lot more to this than sleep disorder.



L.A. Here's the $64 dollar question. Where do you think 'they' come from?

D.J. I do not think I have a $64 answer, but I have an answer that is surprising to those people who think that abductions are psychological. If they were internally generated, we would know the answer to that question but we do not. If, however, the stories were coming out of peoples' minds based on their upbringing and personal situation as well as on popular culture where they would gain their ideas, we would almost certainly know where they are from. In popular culture, most aliens will say their name, where they are from and why they are here. We have never directly discovered this information since the beginning of the phenomenon. IF this were psychological, it would be all over the psychological map. We would be given a myriad of places where they were from, lots of different reasons why they were here, and so on. That this has not happened is strong evidence that this is not derived from popular culture or from psychological origins.

J.J. Very well put by Mr. Jacobs. I believe though once I explain what I’ve found in my research you’ll have your own idea of where they are from.



L.A. Jacque Vallee has gone on the record stating that he believes these entities are interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial, your thoughts?

D.J. I don't particularly care, to be honest, where they are from. It would be interesting to know and perhaps Jacques' theory is correct. I really don't know and abductees don't know. What is important, however, is not where they are from and not how they got here. It is why they are here.

J.J. I would have to agree with the views of Jacque Vallee. The entities show the abilities of being interdimensional. They manifest into physical states and are able to leave physical traces during an event. I do not believe that people are actually taken anywhere during an abduction event. The event is more apparitional in nature. They don’t really need to take the person anywhere, just create the illusion they did to perpetrate the deception. Many experiencers have seen their bodies still in bed as they are taken. As if it is an out of body experience. There are two books out now that even talk of people having met these same entities while experimenting with the drug DMT. How is that possible? I believe what many people mistake, as the high technology of these entities is actually their abilities. Abilities that is natural to them. The ability to have us see what they want us to see. The ability to manifest into physicality. The ability to shape shift.



L.A. Why all the secrecy on the part of the ET's? What are they hiding?

D.J. The simplest answer is that they do not want us to know what they are doing to us. Without secrecy we might find a way to stop individual abductions. Without secrecy the program would not extend intergenerationally and laterally throughout the society. Without secrecy the human hosting of fetuses, so prevalent in abduction accounts and so important to the aliens, would come to a halt. Without secrecy the entire abduction program would probably be untenable.

J.J. Their agenda is one of deception. They are a threat to humanity. The goal seams to be to change the way we think of life itself. Hence, reality transformation. But at what cost to those that follow them?



L.A. What about stories of hybrid children? You mention this dynamic in your books.

D.J. The most important thing about hybrid children is that they provide training for abductees on how to play with special toys that the abductees can manipulate with their minds. The second most important aspect of the children is that they grow up to be adults with functions and jobs within the abduction programs means and goals.

J.J. As I stated before about the hybrid program, I believe it is just more of the deception for the entities to reach their goals. It is a very powerful hook to the experiencer. Where is the evidence?



L.A. In Whitley Strieber's book, Communion, he describes the entities that he is allegedly interacting with as, “…Like the demons of old…” Why do you discount the idea that there may be some sort of 'spirit world' and that these entities may malevolent?

D.J. I discount it because in over twenty years of constant abduction research I have found absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever. And, the abductee ministers with whom I have worked have not found this to be the case either.

J.J. I had the opportunity to host the 2008 Roswell UFO Conference this past July 4th weekend. Almost every speaker was looking at the paranormal nature of these entities and the similarities to legends of old. Researchers are starting to question the idea that these entities are really extraterrestrial. If you look at the work of some of the leading pioneers in the field you see the same thing. Why is this ignored by others?



L.A. Where do you think this is leading? What's the end game?

D.J. This is an integration program by human-looking hybrids. Integrating into the society would mean that humans would not only become second-class citizens, they would become a second-class species. The hybrids have similar abilities to the aliens - they can control people neurologically in a variety of different ways. Humans cannot do this. My next book will detail how the integration program is taking place. It will talk about the process of integration and the bureaucracy set up to make sure that the integration goes smoothly and safely with abductees' help. I can guarantee that no one will have read anything like it before. Now, if only I could get a contract with a publisher to write it!

J.J. An integration program is a possibility in the future. I believe even that will be only another deception toward the conditioning they are trying to achieve. I hope we are able to recognize their agenda before this can happen.



L.A. Has anyone ever stopped an abduction?

D.J. Michael Menkin (www.stopabductions.com) has figured out that the way to stop an abduction is by wearing protective headgear and eyewear. He has had extraordinary results doing so. The problem is that one cannot wear the headgear all day everyday and it does look rather odd in public. More importantly, the vast majority of people who are abductees are not aware of their experiences, although they know that something strange is going on. So, individuals with Mike Menkin's help can stop abductions sometimes, but it is not possible right now for most abductees. Perhaps in the future, it will become more feasible. Unfortunately, prayer, incantation, bargaining, and so forth, do not stop abductions.

J.J. Now to the crux of my research findings. In 1996 I interviewed a gentleman who shared his atypical abduction experience. During his experience, which was terrifying, he was able to stop the experience abruptly. Being a Christian, he called out in the name and authority of Jesus Christ. He immediately woke up startled in his bed. I had not heard of anyone being able to stop an abduction experience before. Puzzled by what we had, I called some of the top abduction researchers in the field to get advice. After sharing the story to them on the phone, they each asked if we could talk off the record. That means I can tell you what they said but not who said it. Each one stated they had come across similar cases in their research. My question was why we had never read or heard about such cases if they had come across them. Their answer was at first that they didn’t know what to make of it. I would have been fine with that answer had they not followed it with another. The other answer was they did not want to go there because it might affect their credibility in the realm. So silence was what they decided on. I have a problem with this, isn’t this what a cover-up is? Forget Government cover-up like we hear so much about, we are getting it from the very researchers that we are relying on for the truth.

Realizing that there were other cases like the one I had come across, I set out to find and document them. Every researcher brings a piece of the UFO puzzle to the table; I chose to make this my piece. A piece that was being ignored. In 1997 my local newspaper did an article on the work we were doing. That article went nationwide due to it being an affiliate of a larger paper. I started getting calls from abduction experiencers all over the country saying they to had stopped their experience the same way. A database was being developed. A few months later a friend alerted me that the magazine, Flying saucer Review had printed the article in its entirety. We were soon getting reports from around the world. These people didn’t feel comfortable sharing their stories with researchers that had only alien agendas. They new something else was going on. They were glad we were there to listen to them. After ten years of documenting cases, we have worked with well over three hundred testimonies of stopping the experience in the name and authority of Jesus Christ. I have posted over seventy-five of them on my website, www.ce4research.com.

It wasn’t long before we had people asking us if we could help them stop their experiences. Learning from those we had worked with already, we showed them how it was possible. And we were able to help them also.

The question researchers have not been able to answer is why is someone abducted? We have learned some very important things from our research that might answer this. One, some people ask for it, I’ve seen this at conferences. And the likes of Whitely Strieber promoting contact. Be careful what you ask for. Another is the finding of seeing people who are dabbling in what is called occult belief systems. This works as a doorway that is opened to allow these entities to mess with them. The one that puzzled us the most in the beginning was the reports of people saying they remember having the experiences as a child. After exploring the family life as a child we often find the parents were into ungodly things. We see an absolute connection to the Christian belief system. We do not find what we call walk-the-walk Christians being affected by this experience. But we do find Christians with not such a good walk being open. This name Jesus Christ is not a magic word. This comes only with a personal relationship to him. He knows your heart.

A very important aspect to this experience is that these entities come against your will. But this Jesus Christ offers you to come to him on your free will. Who do you chose if you have a choice?

I have found a very anti-Christian attitude in the UFO realm, why is that? It seems ok to be of any other belief system or none at all. But say you’re a Christian and your research is not valid. I only took on a piece of the UFO puzzle to help find the truth. Please look at the evidence. The evidence of the case testimonies says the abduction experience can be stopped. Not only once but it can be terminated from your life completely. We have been able to help others, that’s a repeatable event, the only one in the UFO realm.



L.A. Your closing thoughts?

D.J. I have learned that the abduction phenomenon is vast, global, and it occurs with great frequency. The aliens have put an enormous amount of time and energy into this program. It is extremely important to them. That is a sobering thought. For those who want to learn a bit more about abductions, they can visit my website at www.ufoabduction.com.

J.J. Who are these entities? I believe we are dealing with angels, fallen angels from biblical scripture. There purpose is to cheat you out of your GOD given promise of HOPE. This is the conditioning program they are up to. To take your eyes away from the one TRUE GOD. Don’t believe me, test these spirits yourself. And look at the evidence yourself, how many cases does it take for you to see this? We are working with new ones all the time.